>> chris: i'm chris wallace. people take to the streets of cairo to protest the egyptian president's power-grab. and the fallout continues over the benghazi terror attack. ♪ >> chris: we'll discuss the situation in egypt. the cease-fire in gaza. and, the libya investigation, as

we sit down with senator john mccain. it is a fox news sunday exclusive. then, with the loom fiscal cliff, is it casting a shadow over shoppers and investors this holiday season? visions of bargains are dancing inned the of consumers but will the possibility of higher tax slow them down? we'll talk with matthew shay of the national retail federation and john sweeney of fidelity investments. plus the holiday is over and the white house and congressional leaders try to make a deal. we'll ask our sunday panel if negotiators can reach a compromise to avoid the fiscal cliff. and a thanksgiving tradition, our power player of the week has me dancing with turkeys. all, right now, on fox news sunday. ♪ >> chris: and, hello again, from fox news in washington. on this holiday weekend, we are watching several major foreign

policy developments from egypt, to gaza. to the continuing controversy over the benghazi attacks. here to talk about it all is senator john mccain, and, senator, welcome back to fox news sunday. >> thank you, chris, dancing with turkeys? >> chris: you have to wait until the end of the show to see. >> i thought we were doing that now! >> chris: president mohamed morsi, gave himself almost unchecked powers and sent thousands into the streets, the people who have been helping to topple hosni mubarak, now, who they are calling the new egyptian pharaoh. are we headed for a you new islamist coup and islamist state in egypt. >> it could be headed that way and also could be headed back to a military takeover, if things went in the wrong direction. you could also see a scenario where there is continued chaos. i'll never forget, chris, after

i was in egypt, i met with the young people who made the revolution in the square, and, a young woman said, senator mccain it's not the first election we worry about, it's the second. that is what we have to worry about, a repeat of the iranian experience in the 1970s, and -- but, what should the u.s. be doing, saying, this is unacceptable and thank mr. morsi for his efforts in brokering a cease-fire, which is, by the way, incredibly fragile but is not what is acceptable, what the american taxpayers expect and our dollars will be directly related to the progress towards democracy, which you promised the people of egypt, when your party and you were elected president. >> chris: let's talk about that. because, morsi took his step hours after secretary of state clinton praised him for helping broker the deal between hamas and israel and so far, at least the administration issued, the

state department, a tepid criticism. how tough should they get with them? directly say pull back, what should our demands an leverage be? >> our leverage is obviously, not only the substantial billions in aid we provide, plus, debt forgiveness and an i. -- an imf deal, but the marshalling world publish opinion is against this kind of move by mr. morsi. we appreciate president morsi's action but it always in the past the united states that brokered the deals and there is a clear perception at least amongst hamas that they won on this one. and, unfortunately, the plo has been, mahmoud abbas and others have been diminished as a result of the negotiations and the settlement reached, and i predict hamas will continue to test the israelis and how far they can go. and, finally, let's trace some of this back to iran. where did the missiles come from

that were being fired? iran. where are the iranian revolutionary guard on the ground? syria, the centrifuges continue to spin in tehran and, we have to start facing up to what is one of the prime reasons why there is the kind of unrest we are seeing throughout the middle east. >> chris: let me just button-up the morsi thing. what should our demand be of him? >> stop. stop. renounce the statement, and the move that he just made. allow the judiciary to function. if the judiciary is flawed in some way, then, that is an illness that can be cured over time but, absolutely, to assume this kind of power is unacceptable to the united states of america and, then, we can outline what actions might be taken. but, first, condemn it. >> chris: let's talk a little bit, you already led us in that direction, to the cease-fire, the fragile cease-fire worked out this week between israel and hamas. how fragile is it?

what do you make of it? and, you know, we saw the longer-range iranian missiles that had been smuggled into gaza and were fired at tel aviv and jerusalem, which raises the question, if israel takes action against iran's nuclear program, what is the threat they face from right on their border in gaza? and, from the lebanese border with hezbollah? >> i think they face a significant challenge, with hezbollah, because of the tens of thousands of missiles that are in southern lebanon. i also think that the iranians will continue unless they see that there is a price to pay, which argues for the united states and israel to establish red lines and say the iranians, you cannot cross that and as a result of the leck and receelec recent events, the president and the prime minister of israel's relationship dramatically improved and we certainly hope so but it is time we work together and recognize it is not

just nuclear weapons the iranians are doing, i outlined the other things they are doing, plus astraigorchestrating acts terror and attempts to assassinate the saudi ambassador in washington, d.c. we have to develop a strategy to counter that. >> chris: the director of national intelligence, now says that he was responsible for watering down, edit ig the talking points that u.n. ambassador susan rice used when she went on those five sunday talk shows, here's the picture, the famous picture of it. to talk about benghazi, but you say a few days before his office said they were responsible for editing the talking points, in a closed-door hearing the head of intelligence, james clapper, told you and other senators he didn't know who was responsible. question: two questions: where does the investigation stand? and how do you get to the bottom of it? >> well, it is like any other -- assuming the proportions of any

other major scandal in this town, there are many layers to the onion and there are all kinds of questions raised, the most recent, the one you mentioned. i saw the director of national intelligence say he didn't know where the talking points were edited and now he's saying he did it. we'll be interested how that transpired. but, the biggest aspect of the whole thing is, it has to be really looked into. is why there was such a failure on the part of the administration in light of events, the two attacks on our embassy, assassination attempt on the british ambassador. they closed their consul, and all the train of events that made our consulate in benghazi a death trap and during that, why didn't we have military capabilities close by? especially on september 11th? >> chris: and all of the hearings so far, and we're two months out, do you have any answers to those questions, as to why we weren't better

prepared for this possibility. >> and as late as september 25th two weeks liter, the president of the united states, at the united nations, was talking about hateful videos, and there are many things that need to be resolved, four committees in the house and four in the senate and they are holding different hearings and turf fights going on as it usually does in these bodies and we need a select committee in order to sort it out. to find out what happened, but, also, we can't ever again have a tragedy such as took place in benghazi and it could have been prevented in my view. now we have to make sure that there are ways to make sure it doesn't happen. >> chris: you say that you will do everything in your power to block susan rice's nomination, if the president decides to name her to be secretary of state. she said this week, that all she did was rely on the intelligence community's talking points and then went on to say this about you: >> i do think that some of the statements he has made about me

have been unfounded. but i look forward to having the opportunity at the appropriate time to discuss all of this with him. >> chris: is there anything that ambassador rice can do to change your mind? >> sure. she can -- with everyone, the benefit of explaining their position, and the actions they took. i'd be glad to have the opportunity to discuss these issues with her. why did she say that -- why did she say that al qaeda has been decimated? in her statement, here, on this program. al qaeda has not been decimated. they are on the rise. they are all over iraq. training camps are in libya. they are all overseer ye syria on the rise in the middle east and there's a lot of questions for ambassador rice and i'm sure i'll have the opportunity to discuss these with her. >> chris: but you are saying that she could conceivably get your vote for secretary of state? >> i think she deserves the ability and the opportunity to explain herself and her

position. just as she said. but, she's not the problem. the problem is the president of the united states, who, on -- in a debate with mitt romney, said that he had said it was a terrorist attack and he hadn't and in fact that night on "60 minutes" he said they didn't know what kind of an attack it was and continued to say -- >> he said in an interview with "60 minutes" which we didn't see -- >> didn't see until after the election, i'm sure that it was such an inconsequential statement, it didn't deserve the attention of the american people, before the election. >> chris: let me pick up on in a more aspect and we'll move on. house democratic leader james clyburn said this week, lindsay graham and you have used racial code words to go after susan rice. take a look: >> called her incompetent as well and he told us sarah palin was a competent person, for the vice president of the united states and that tells you a little bit about his judgment. >> chris: your reaction? >> you can't -- you know,

dignify comments like that. i notice in this town if they can't win the argument on the merits, then they resort to those kinds of personal attacks. it goes with the territory. >> chris: would you agree to raise taxes as part of a solid compromise to avoid a fiscal cliff. >> i would be very much opposed to raising tax rates. but i do believe we can close a lot of loop hose, the tax code is this high. we can do plenty of things to eliminate these -- in fact, two other things, one is, things like a limit on the amount of deduction of charitable giving. a limit on the amount you can take on your home loan mortgage deduction. and, obviously, we are going to have to look at entitlement reform. entitlement reform is the only way we are going to really get the debt and deficit under control. and we have to take it on. >> chris: but let me ask you. you say you would consider more revenue but through loopholes and deductions... let me ask

you, you vote against the bush tax cuts, a decade ago, because, and i went back and looked, you said too many of the benefits go to the wealthy, not to the middle class and once they were passed you changed your view and said they have taken effect. i will not oppose them. but, if you could get a solid deal, with, as you call for, spending cuts and entitlement reform and make a major -- take a chunk out of the national debt, why is the 35% top tax rate which you opposed sacred? >> because every economist that i respect says if you raise tax rates at this time, in fact, the president even said a couple of years ago, it harms the economy. we are trying to help the economy. and, so, unless i can be convinced that raising tax rates will be beneficial, then obviously i think there's reason and ground for my position. but, i also believe that we can and must get an agreement, otherwise i think first of all, the markets are going to start reacting. >> chris: we'll talk about that in the next segment, and i think

it is a real issue. finally, let's talk about the g.o.p. republicans, i don't have to tell you, had a really rough night on election night. and let's look at the break down of some of the numbers. you lost unmarried women by 36 points, hispanics, by 44 points. young people, by 23 points. does your party need to change, especially, with those groups, on social issues like same sex marriage and immigration reform? >> i think we have to have a bigger tent. no doubt about it. and, obviously we have to do immigration reform. there is no doubt whatsoever that the demographics are not on our side. and, we are going to have to give a much more positive agenda. it can't be just being against the democrats. and against harry reid and against obama. you have to be for things, and we have to give them something like the contract with america, that we gave them some years ago. we have to give them something to be for. and as far as young women are

concerned, absolutely. i don't think anybody like me, i can state my position on abortion, but, to -- other than that, leave the issue alone. when we are in the kind of economic situation and, frankly, national security situation we're in. >> chris: when you say leave the issue alone, you would allow, you say, freedom of choice? >> i would allow people to have those popinions and rec those opinions and i'm proud of my pro-life position and record and if someone disagrees with me, i respect your views. >> chris: senator mccain, thank you as always for coming in today, you will have a busy final weeks here in 2012. >> we certainly will. thank you, sir. >> chris: thank you. up next 'tis the season to shop and spend, but the upcoming fiscal clip put a damper on consumers and investors? ♪ we're sitting on a bunch of shale gas.

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>> chris: for all of you who survived black friday, here's something new to worry about. christmas is one month from today. and, a week after that, if nothing gets done here in washington, we all go over the fiscal cliff. what does that mean for shoppers, and investors, in these final days of 2012? for answers, we turn to matthew shay, president and ceo of the national retail federation and from newton, massachusetts, john sweeney, executive vice president of fidelity investments. mr. shay, what can you tell us about holiday shopping this long thanksgiving holiday weekend? are people buying? >> well, it looks like people are buying. the data we have got so far

looks like we had a very busy, a very successful weekend. we know a number of retailers opened earlier. the they were open on thanksgiving and retailers have been piloting that the last three years and 24% who went out on the entire weekend were out on thanksgiving by midnight and i think the numbers will show, this year we did better than that. and we are predicting about 4% increase, in sales, over last year. last year we did 5.5% actual and that was very good, and, i'm not sure he'll hit the number but when we did the 4% forecast, it was pre-election and a lot of uncertainty in the economy and now we are bullish and we think we had a good weekend. >> chris: christmas shopping not just for the first weekend but for the whole season was up 5.6% last year, do you think you'll have that strong of a christmas shopping season this year? >> well, thanks to an act of the president, 75 years ago, president roosevelt, now we have a very long holiday season and

this is as long as it can possibly be. >> chris: briefly explain, thanksgiving was very early. the 23rd -- >> it can't be any earlier than that based on the fact it has to be the 4th thursday -- >> 22nd, i think. >> gives us as many days as we can have and an extra weekend and christmas is on a tuesday and we'll have a nice, long selling season and we'll see real growth and i think we'll go back and look at the numbers in mid december and see whether we need to make an adjustment. but, now, everything we have heard from the ceos and others we have talked to, look like we had a really good weekend and a great way to start the holiday season. >> chris: mr. sweeney, the numbers for the markets are not as strong. the dow jones average is down 236 points, 1.8%, since election day and the question, and it gets to the main subject we want to talk about today. how much of that do you believe is investor concern about the fiscal cliff? >> we surveyed our investors, after the election and found that 83% of them were concerned

about the fiscal cliff, 83% of them also concerned about the long term national debt. and those are issues weighing on the minds of our investors and you talked about the pull back of the equity markets, and the equity mark et was up 13% and, you see a significant pull back from that, at that time. so, a couple of things to keep in mind. one, when you think about making investment decisions, try and make the investing decision first. so, when you have a market that is up 15%, it is natural to think about rebalancing. when you think of constructing portfolios, we want to be sure investors are focused on the long term and not the short-term vagaries of the market and balancing is an activity that happens cons satantly and, lookr equities that appreciated and rebalance, and go into cash where appropriate. >> chris: i'll go to the fiscal

cliff and its impact on investors in a moment. mr. shay, you talk about investors, how aware are consumers about the coming fiscal cliff and do you get the sense they are factoring the uncertainty about what is going to happen into their decision about how much this spend this christmas? >> consumers are very aware of this. we have been in the field since about labor day, and, the numbers ranged anywhere from 65% to 80%, of respondents, so shoppers have said, they are aware of what is going on. they may not be able to put every facet on what the fiscal cliff means but economic uncertainty, generally, because it is such a point of contentious between the political parties, we talk about it every day and it is the leading headline of the day, they are thinking of that and -- >> scaling back? >> well, i think it means that they are no spending as robustly as they would, because, they still don't know what will happen and it is very clear, just as john said, about investors, that ceos of companies, whether large or small, business owners, are thinking about what is going on in the economy and what might

happen next year, before they make those capital investments, so when you think about the retail industry creating 42 million jobs, 1 in 4 americans, 20% of gdp, 95% of them have a single unit, 50%, only, employ 5 people, and if they don't spend and invest and grow our economy is not going to grow and so we talk about fixing taxes and spending and we really need to talk about growing the economy. >> mr. sweeney, it obviously gets more complicated than consumers, when you talk about investors. and, the decisions they have to make. let's look at some of the real world consequences for investors, if we do go over the cliff at the end of the year. between the expiration of the bush tax cuts and higher taxes, for obamacare, the top capital gains rate will jump from 15% to 23.8, and listen to this: the top rate on dividends will jump from 15% to 43.4. how are, mr. sweeney, investors reacting to those possible, very stiff tax hikes?

>> well, to that point, you want some clarity and whether the clarity comes in your personal economy at home, whether, you are a ceo or cfo of a corporation you want clarity how to spend the cash you have accumulated on your balance sheet or, if you are the government you want to figure out how to impact the spending you have at the federal level as well. americans are looking for clarity, so they can make the decisions, and, in terms of purchasing short-term christmas gifts for the next selling season or whether, again, if you are a ceo and trying to think of investing in a plant or hiring new people -- >> if i may, sir, specifically, if you have a stock and you see your capital gains, if you sell the stock, could go from 15% to 24%, at the -- on january 1st, are some people cashing out now? >> well, what we have seen over the last year is people in the search for yield have sought out dividend-producing equities and the ten-year treasury 1.5% and

the s&p dividend yield, 2.3%, people flocked to dividend producing equities but as you said, the pull back in the market often comes from the high dividend producing equities that appreciated significantly over the last year, telecoms, particularly, and utilities have been the hardest hit in the most high school weeks and have been stocks that have been attractive to investors, looking for higher dividend yields but we have seen contraction because the price-to-earnings ratios are out of line with what we are seeing in the rest of the s&p and the diversified industries. >> chris: investors -- let me just, if i may, mr. sweeney, fidelity did a survey of your investors and you found that 3/4 of them don't think we are going 0 go over the cliff and think there will be a deal but if our leaders come back tomorrow and we go a couple more weeks and suddenly the deal is looking less and less possible, and the cliff is getting closer and closer, what kind of impact will it have on the markets? >> i think we've seen that. you know, as we mentioned,

between the end of the third quarter, and, the past week, you have had volatility in the markets and you have had pull back in the equities and people started to take equity risk off the table. i would hope the people are doing that from a rebalancing standpoint, when they've had appreciation in equities you want to rebalance into fixed income to make sure you stick with your target asset mix and not making a reactionary move. >> chris: don't get too technical on us here, sir. the question really becomes, could you begin to see the markets really drop as we get closer to the fiscal cliff? >> i think, you have seen some of that already. so, what we worry about, if we worry about the shift that we saw, the last couple of years, where people abandon that like in post '08 and '09 and shifted a trillion dollars into bonds and what they missed is the rally of the market since '09 and we want folks to focus less on the short-term and more on the longer term and understand the role equities play in your

profession portfolio and make sure you have the right balance of risk and balance in your portfolio. >> chris: looking at the various options that have been mentioned for a possible compromise, mr. shay, are there some things that are better for the retail industry and some things that are worse? >> well the best thing i think is to get us into 2013 and so we can have a conversation in a comprehensive way about the entire tax code and looking at entitlement spending and thinking about, to john's point, the long term issues and what drives the deficit here obviously is the spending on entitlements, medicare and medicaid and social security and we cannot fix it by attacking discretionary spending. that is the easy thing and it is conve convenient and when we talk about political leadership we need it and we need specificity and what we ought to do in the next few weeks is get a down payment that gets us into next year and then have a thoughtful discussion about how we make the tax code more competitive and lower the corporate rate from 35 to 25% and broaden the base and

do the things that will put us on a trajectory of growing, and consumers start to pull back, now we are talking about 70% of the economy is consumption and if they pull back and start to save, we are talking the paradox of thrift and people don't spend at a time we need them to spend and going off the falls in a barrel, the fiscal cliff without a barrel would be a disaster and people say, we could do it and we'll have leverage politically, it would be a terrible idea and we'd be back in recession and consumers wouldn't spend, big mistake. >> chris: mr. sweeney, finally, less than a minute left. if we get a deal and it's a solid deal, how much of a boost would it be to the markets? how much pent-up demand? how much would you -- capital sitting on the sidelines, i guess, i'm asking, what is the upside here? >> yes, i think there is cash sitting on the sidelines and we have seen an increase in money market funds over the last two months and, you assume there is

cash waiting to be deployed. what we want to make sure, though, is we ask consumers, corporations and the government to think about, want to be sure your burn doesn't exceed your earn, so when you are thinking about spending, obviously, make sure whatever you are earning out of your portfolio or your paycheck doesn't exceed your capacity to earn. >> chris: we'll have to leave it there. mr. sweeney, mr. shay, thank you both. thanks for talking with us, this holiday weekend and maybe our leaders will give us a christmas present and pull us back from fiscal cliff. we can only hope. >> cyber monday is tomorrow, we are not done yet! >> chris: always selling! up next, foreign policy hot spots, our sunday group weighs in on egypt, gaza, and, the ongoing probe of the benghazi terror attack. ♪ our abundant natural gas is already saving us money, producing cleaner electricity, putting us to work here in america and supporting wind and solar. though all energy development comes with some risk,

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>> i must put myself on a clear path. that will lead to the achievement of a clear goal. >> this is a new era. in egypt. this is not what the revolution was about. >> chris: egyptian president morsi and one of the protesters in the street after he grabbed almost total power in that country, this week. time for our sunday group. bill kristol of "the weekly standard," kirsten powers from the daily beast web site and fox news analyst liz cheney and fox news political analyst, juan williams. bill, how serious is the situation in egypt in do you believe his claim that this is a temporary measure? until the country adopts a new

constitution? or is it possibly an islamist coup? >> we don't know. we have some influence i think to make it one and not the other and that is the test for us and it is a test for us, the administration, secretary clinton was there, earlier this week, and, then, morsi makes the announcement, what, two days after she left the country and this is not a place we don't have relations schmidt, and a place we don't give a lot of aid to and it is a test to the administration, can we pressure and introduce him to let there be -- and induce him, and the who ... >> chris: kirsten, this is the question i discussed with john mccain, how much can and should the administration do to try to put pressure on morsi to pull back. >> the issue, obviously, they are facing is egypt played an important role in the situation with israel and i think it is interesting, right after that happened, morsi did this.

i think he feels like he has a strong hand because he did help out in the situation that the u.s. asked him to help out with and they are going to have to figure out how much they need to still -- need to support in that situation and, so, that said, they do need to condemn this kind of anti-democratic behavior, i think, to make it clear that we were behind a democracy and you cannot do this kind of anti-democratic thing. >> chris: kirsten makes a good point, liz, to some degree, particularly dealing with hamas, morsi played a constructive role and to some degree we need him. how tough do we get with him. >> i don't know how much we need him, the role he played with hamas, now he has hamas and the muslim brotherhood are basically the same organization and, morsi and the muslim brotherhood, president of egypt, stepped in and he's now somehow supposed to be the arbiter of disagreements between the israelis and hamas, over the cease-fire. and at the end of the day the real problems, as senator mccain pointed out is iran and what

will happen next. you had hamas since the cease-fire said they'll continue to support hamas -- iran will and we need to be clear and strong and we need to cancel any debt forgiveness and, i think i would put a hold on all economic aid. i would look carefully at the military aid and i would say, clearly, you know, we do not support this. the problem is, that our silence is read by people all across the middle east, as acquiescence in the completely anti democratic clamp down he has undertaken. >> chris: i want you to pick up on the question of the cease-fire. the other big development this week, israel and hamas agreeing to a cease-fire. but, israel says it is going to maintain its border restrictions though they said they'll talk about it. but they certainly will not lift the blockade. the nato blockade and hamas, as was pointed out, number 2, said we are going to keep rockets from gaza that can be fired into

israel. how stable is the situation. >> the peace deal is foreseeable. it is not difficult to see already, israel would stop with the assassinations and half mass would stop firing rockets and the second thing is israel would do something with the border crossing, opening the borders, to get commerce activity back to normal which the palestinians dearly want, as well as to have a sense that israel would -- hamas would stop the smuggling of the weapons, coming from syria. and that is why the naval blockade is in place, again, israel fears that the weapons are coming through there and, you have the possibility of the united states coming in and you ask about u.s. pressure and there is also u.s. playing a greater role. the obama administration has said, you know what? let people settle this for themselves and instead the u.s. might way, we'll help you and control those ports to make sure weapons aren't being smuggled in. we will play a more aggressive role. that is the challenge for the obama administration, in the second term. whereas the first term i think

they wanted a light footprint. >> chris: then there is benghazi. the president and -- let's talk about one aspect of this. we talked about the investigation for a long time. the president is expected to announce a number of top appointments, including cabinet positions in the coming days, conceivably some, it is report, as soon as this week, and, one of the questions is, and you see the two of them there, do you think he will take on this fight, and name susan rice to be secretary of state, bill, and if he were to do so do you think the senate will confirm her? >> president obama hasn't confided in me, who the secretary of state appointment is, i know that is a shock, i rather think he'll appoint her and i think, i'm not a huge fan of hers but i think she's likely to be confirmed by the senate and people might decide, given the range of alternative appointments, maybe she's not -- john kerry might be a worse secretary of state. so, maybe, one goes ahead and lets him have the secretary of state he wants or one vote against it, as senators will say

she was not forthcoming, obviously in september and should have known better than to say what she said, and vote against it but since democrats control the senate i'm assuming she'll get confirmed. >> chris: what is wrong with john kerry as secretary of state. obviously he is not who you would appoint but as a democratic... >> susan rice is more interventionist than john kerry. he's the guy who has been against -- every we're, the first gulf war, and, the iraqi war, he was against it and i think susan rice might go along with juan and say, the light footprint thing is not working out so well and not having presence in libya and not intervening in syria... >> chris: push for the intervention of -- >> yes, and, it's not my administration, not my choice but if one thinks, it is incredibly dangerous moment, thanks to the light footprint, and the utter collapse of the u.s. power in the region, maybe susan rice will be more alard than john kerry.

>> chris: kirsten will the president name her. >> i don't know. if he does, that kind of arrogance, which is what i think it could be, could be his undoing, if she's put under oath and forced to go through and answer all of these questions about benghazi, i think it is going to put the administration in a really bad position and i don't think she was the front-runner. i don't understand where it came out of, everything i had heard was, she was in the running, and it was really leaning more towards john kerry and we have a press conference with the president, the president kind of went off, about susan rice, and, it has now become almost a sense of pride. so -- >> chris: you think he cornered himself in the press conference? >> i do. >> chris: saying what he said and if he doesn't name her it looks like he is caving. >> i feel he did and i don't know it was intentional and he went a little overboard. his defense of her was fine to a point and then it went into an area that wasn't -- didn't really make sense. and, i think that, put her under oath and have her answer questions, the administration

will not ask or answer over benghazi, go for it. >> she went on the air and misled the american people and says she is an expert on north africa. and either she knew what she was saying, was wrong, and, people al qaeda, it was not because of the video or the alternative is she took talking points she was given and read them without questioning and either case are not the actions of somebody -- >> you are shaking your head and i'll give you the last word. go ahead, juan. >> it is so unfair. this lady was given intelligence materials, by the intelligence community and you can blame the intelligence community. there is no way you can blame susan rice and suggest that she is unqualified. a rhodes scholar, the woman is extraordinary. >> she's not qualified -- the benghazi -- >> so politicized. time to end this. >> chris: it is time to end this segment! thank you, we'll take a break and when we come back the president and congressional leaders get back to work monday. will they come up with a way to

avoid the fiscal cliff. i put away money. i was 21, so i said, "hmm, i want to retire at 55." and before you know it, i'm 58 years old. time went by very fast. it goes by too, too fast. ♪ but i would do it again in a heartbeat. [ laughs ] ♪ ♪

>> chris: still to come, our power player of the week. >> what i learned was to love work. >> chris: she grew up on a farm in california, making enough from raising cattle to send herself to college. >> i'm really happiest when i am engaged and working and

♪ >> relegated to a group of people meeting in secret, plotting, some sort of scheme that they think is best for america. >> the fiscal cliff is not going to happen. so the ceiling, is not going to fall. >> chris: senators jeff session and congressman charlie rangel on prospects for avoiding the fiscal cliff and we're back with the panel. liz is charlie rangel right, the sky is not falling and the fiscal cliff will not happen. >> i don't want to say charlie rangel is right. look, i think the potential damage done by going off the fiscal cliff is so significant, that i would hope that even in the town that is divided right now, people will be able to come together to avoid it. what concerns me now, is that

the whole terrain we're on is the argument about whether or not we should raise taxes, on the upper income earners, to get us through the end of the year, when the argument really ought to be, is the president of the united states willing to put forward spending proposals and spending cuts that are serious enough that we can in fact come to an agreement. so, i think that, you know, if you look at the bigger picture here, the president really is sort of pushing a fallacy, which i have watched some sundays, my dear friend, bill kristol buy into on the panel. that we can solve our problems... but the notion that we can solve it by raising taxes on the upper income earners which is economically ill-advised and very dangerous and hopefully we'll get beyond that. >> chris: i'll give bill kristol an opportunity to respond in a moment. juan, the president and congressional leaders met at the white house, a week ago friday, before everybody went off for thanksgiving and at that point there was positive talk that the republicans were talking about putting revenues, new revenues,

if not, higher tax rates on the table and the president talked in general terms about entitlement reform and spending cuts and supposedly between then and now, the staffs were supposed to try to begin to work on this. and, the word, unofficial word, i haven't had much progress in, you know, when it comes to the rubber meets the road in making a deal. where are we. >> the president -- they've been meeting with republican staff and boehner's staff and, mcconnell staff and there are basic outlines and possibilities and ideas thrown on the table but it really comes down to the principles and the personalities of the president, john boehner, and senator reid, and mcconnell. what is on the table, i think this week you see more republicans saying, you know, we will not hold to the grover norquist idea, the man who says that everybody who is a republican has to sign a "no tax increase" pledge.

>> chris: in fact they've already signed it. >> in some cases but this week you had people like saxby chambliss, joining people like your guest this morning, john mccain, tom coburn and others and 12 members of the house, saying, republicans have to be willing to compromise. we did not win, clearly, this election, and the president is back in office, you have to make some kind of deal and so the president's side, he needs to deal, too. and sometimes it doesn't get attention from the press but you heard nancy pelosi and harry reid saying they expect a deal along with charlie rangel before the december 31 deadline and the unions are on the air saying, don't cut our programs badly and the republican side, both sides are under pressure for a deal, right now and they will make it. >> chris: well, that is an optimistic view. bill, let me ask you, you can respond to sister cheney about this. one idea floated this week is for top earners to pay, instead of raising our top marginal

rate, they would pay that top rate, now, 35%. on every dollar they make. and, let's put up the graphic on the screen and try to explain it, now pay the top 10, 70,00015% an ned of that, you pay 35% on all the income from 0 up to whatever you made if you were making over $250,000. question: good idea? >> not particularly. and, i saw -- i asked someone on the hill and they said, no, we realize that is not a good idea. the republicans are going into contortion trying not to raise the top rates and while in fact trying to produce revenues which speaker boehner said he's for and, they are scared of being accused of attacking the middle class. i don't care if they want to find a complicated way to get revenues, i suppose, i think it is probably easier, to give in a little bit on the top rate. but, they made that a matter of -- i will not raise my own sword, on telling them not to

break their sword on it but i point out, what is the one tax rate going up on january 1st no one is talking about and apparently both parties are going to... the payroll tax was cut to 10%, the last two years and i gather the republicans have no problem, with letting working class and middle class americans have a 2% tax increase, and, that is not currently the republican position, the payroll tax cuts should be extend and the administration is going to let that go, god forbid they should cut entitlements, from wealthy seniors and, those who benefit from big government and, the one tax that is going to go up, on january 1st, the deal, on january 1st is the payroll tax which is wrong and republicans have a huge opportunity to be champions of the working class and middle class, instead of screaming and yelling about millionaires. >> chris: kirsten, some democrats are now saying, let's go over the cliff. everybody's tax rates will go up

and, the president in january, can go back to congress and say, now it is 39.6%, and, now it is whatever it raises for for the middle class and i'll present a plan that will cut the tax rates, cut the tax rates, of 98% of people. everybody under $250,000. are you prepared now, when the rate is already up, to oppose that. >> well the problem with that plan is, it is dangerous, because we don't know how the markets would react. it may look reckless and we can see us getting downgraded again, that is not an ideal outcome, clever but not ideal and obama has the upper hand and i don't think he has to do that. you have bill kristol and saxby chambliss and a lot of incoming republicans not signing the tax pledge, and starting to say, look, this doesn't have to be orthodoxy. i think, i agree with bill, i'm sorry. why -- if you are willing to raise revenues, why not let it go back to the clinton rates. this is just silly. you know? and i think there will be more

pressure on them, and there is really no reason for obama to give in on it. >> chris: liz? >> you know, a fundamental difference of view where revenues come from and what republicans, i hope, will stand firm on, is, the truth, revenues come from increased economic growth and we need pro-growth, economic policies in order to create jobs, and generate revenues, and, you know, the notion that we're somehow going to go back to the clinton rates and it will be okay. you have a lot of other rates, in terms of state tax rates and others that have gone up since and that means the clinton rates are no longer the clinton rates, so we really need to make clear, it isn't raising these or those rates, it is about, will we get or spending under control, will the president stop his addiction to spending other people's money or deal with the debt or deal with entitlement and have economic growth so we get revenue we need? >> you'll have economic growth going -- i'm going to tell you something, with the aging population, you cannot cut entitlement, willy-nilie nil wi

saying the rich have to make sacrifice. >> chris: and they follow our lead they'll avoid the fiscal cliff! boy, they are in trouble. thanks, panel, check out panel plus where the group picks up with the discussion on our web site, foxnewssunday.com and we'll post the video before noon eastern time, and follow us on twitter on fox news sunday, up next our power player of the week. ♪ under my town. it's a game changer. ♪ it means cleaner, cheaper american-made energy. but we've got to be careful how we get it. design the wells to be safe. thousands of jobs. use the most advanced technology to protect our water. billions in the economy. at chevron, if we can't do it right, we won't do it at all. we've got to think long term. we've got to think long term. ♪

>> chris: here's a holiday riddle we first asked you last year. who founded a huge tech company, created a successful cosmetic business, and, now raises turkeys like the indians did? the answer... our power player of the week. ♪ >> know your soil, know your rainfall, know your weather, know your animals. >> chris: sandy learner is talk about sustainable farming, raising livestock and growing vegetables without the chemicals that are so common in what she

calls factory farming. just case before thanksgiving, she took me out to see and, yes, to dance with her 1300 turkeys, heritage breeds that trace back to the indians. >> gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble! gobble, gobble, gobble... >> chris: she's mistress of 800 acres in upperville, virginia but as interesting as her business is how she got here. she grew up on a farm in california, making enough from raising cattle to send herself to college. >> what i learned was, to love work, i'm happiest when i'm engaged and working and thinking, and, striving. >> chris: she got into computers, in 1984, she and her then husband, started cisco systems. they found a way to link networks of computers, the foundation of the internet. but, six years later venture capital people were running cisco. >> chris: how do you get fired

from a company that you started? >> we just basically got taken to the cleaners and part of that was, if you don't have an employment contract, i got fired by the same guy... steve jobs. >> chris: learner had a second act. she started a cosmetics company called urban decay with edgy colors for women like her and in 1996, she bought the farm. >> historically, people who had the disposable income who made strides in farm, look at george washington or thomas jefferson. >> you are a pretty girl... pretty is as pretty does. >> chris: she raises shires, war horses that go back centuries. scotch highland cattle and, those turkeys, which she says taste better because of the lives they lead. >> chris: how much does one of these turkey cost as compared to what i get in the grocery store. >> our turkeys are expensive, they are between, i think they are running 160 to $200.

>> chris: at those prices there are questions about how to make this kinds of farming profitable. but, while she is determined to run a sound business, it is not just about the bottom line. there's a 40 room mansion on the farm. >> chris: what is it like living there? >> i don't know. >> chris: what do you mean. >> i don't know, i live in a log cabin and i love it. >> chris: do you think you are a bit eccentric. >> now that i am rich. i used to just be weird. >> chris: days before thanksgiving, she and i dance with the turkeys! she grew up on a family farm. and, she want to see those values live on. >> i'm a could yw girl and i cal what cows are thinking and very much my success as a farmer, which george washington was, he want to be a really good farmer and i think i have been -- i have become a good farmer. >> chris: sandy sold about a thousand turkeys this thanksgiving but also gave 600 to d.c. central kitchen for use at shelters, food lines, and

schools. and that's it for today, have a great week. and we'll see you next fox news great week. and we'll see you next fox news sunday. captioning by, closed captioning services, inc.